This Is A MUST WATCH
Written by Mockarena // February 26, 2012 // The Makeover And/Or Miscellaneous // 76 Comments
I’m serious, you guys – if you watch NOTHING ELSE this week, PLEASE make time to watch this awesomeness from John Stossel. And then remember that conservatives are the ones who want to put power back in the hands of the people, and folks like Obama and his liberal friends are the people who believe we need MORE of the moronic laws featured in Stossel’s story.
76 Comments on "This Is A MUST WATCH"
The time will come when we can’t even scratch our own head…
SHHHH, Bella! Don’t give them any ideas! They already have enough fodder, what with that damn Tax Dictionary of theirs.
You know, that dictionary that they go through and add the word “tax” onto the end of every word.
The hubs and and I just watched this together. We were talking about the drugs and sex part. We are conservative Christians, so we’ve always kind of sided on the “drugs and prostitution should be illegal” thing. However, this opened our eyes a bit. It made me think of the concept “If you make owning guns illegal, only criminals will own guns” – something I have ALWAYS stated and believed wholeheartedly. Well, the drugs and prostitution thing ARE THE EXACT THING. The crime follows making it illegal. Consider us re-enlightened. Sharing this.
You imply liberals are ‘moronic’ yet you use footage from Faux News to make your point. Truly delusional.
Brannon – do you have something specific to refute in the story? Because if you don’t, you just made yourself look MORE moronic. Well done.
Yep, my DH and I watched this together too, and you want to know something hilarious? My mother, who is a mind your own backyard type of liberal in the classic sense(what Liberal used to mean), would agree with both the premise and the conclusion of this show. I am scared, because if my Reagan loving a** and my flower child mother have come to common ground regarding our government…………….
I watched this show on Fox. I am a Christian conservative. I thoroughly enjoyed his show until he started in on the drugs and prostitution being legalized. It may have the same consequences as the prohibition era, but they are still wrong. To open this up to legalization leads our young people down a path that ends in destruction and death. At least with the laws as they are now, young people are encouraged to not go down that path. The crime may disappear, but that will not in any way deter or discourage the use of drugs. I think this idea is being put out there because the taxpayers are tired of the expense of incarcerating these criminals……..hurting the pocketbook………….never mind the ruined lives of our teenagers. Government intrusion into our lives is getting out of hand, but there are areas where it is right. Please rethink re-enlightenment.
I have to agree with Paula. I was less than impressed with the child like intellectualism that came out of this show.
Is history so evasive to people that we cannot seem to learn or even fathom the mistakes of the past? How many civilizations have to fall be fore we cop a clue to the utter nonsense of an ‘anything goes’ society and it’s trappings?
The sheer audacity of legalizing crime to make crime go away boggles my mind. If we legalize murder would it make it any less of a murder? Somehow I doubt it.
I do not believe you have to be pro murder to believe our government is strangling us. Did you know you can be convicted of Felony BRAIDING!! Thats right. Not cutting or coloring. If someone pays you to braid their hair, and you are not a licensed cosmologist, you will be convicted of Felony braiding. Same for shampoo girls. Remember them? In Oklahoma, that also is a Felony. So that is two jobs eliminated, choice reduced, and service prices hiked, due solely to government meddling in a voluntary, luxury, industry. The cosmetologist may no longer share the bounty of their skills by paying less skilled individuals to help with some of the work. The employees are shuttled, the operator is punished, and suffers from lack of help, and the operators talent and skills are available to less customers because they have to sweep the hair from the floor themselves. Who wins in the scenario? We all lose, except for some pinhead enjoying their power trip in some office at the Capitol.
Ricci: While I agree that there are way too many laws on the books that are just plain stupid, I do believe you know and understand the pseudo intellectualism I was referring to.
Any society legalizing bad behavior with the ‘more is better’ mentality of human nature is a recipe for failure. Legalizing the behavior will not change the consequences other than enhancing them and making them greater. Go ahead and pull that thread and watch the sweater unravel. And by that token, the ‘more is better’ mentality is also what brought us way too many laws on the books as well.
History is a guide…dig in.
Paula and Laurel,
You miss the point. Where drugs are illegal, you will find an increase in OTHER types of crime. That is proven. Same thing with prostitution. Also, in both cases, where young people are concerned: if you make it acceptable to do, that is, not risky and not rebellious, fewer young people will do it, whatever “it” is. Think back to when you were a kid. If someone told you, “You can’t do this! You are not allowed!” didn’t that make you want to do it all the more? It’s the principle of the forbidden fruit. Want to know why I never drank to excess on more than 1 or 2 occasions? Because my parents allowed me to, under their supervision (and illegally, I might add), have wine or even a small mixed drink or frozen drink at home now and then. It made it NOT the “shiny thing you shouldn’t touch.” Therefore, I had no reason to “rebel” and do it.
As an American, this video reminded me that I don’t have the right to tell you or anyone else how to live their own lives, so long as they aren’t harming someone else. Harm themselves all they want; that is their right. As a Christian, I will teach the children in my family what is acceptable to God, and that God’s laws outweight man’s – and yet we don’t have the right to forecefully impose those laws on anyone else. It’s as simple as that.
Laural: I do, and am very sympathetic to the temptation to try to impose morality by writ of law. However, making things illegal makes them pay, and we enrich those who will engage anyway beyond all reason. The study of alcohol versus pot is a good case study in the unintended consequences of prohibition by LAW. The only effective prohibition is leveled by society at large. Take smoking. Aside from taking a boatload of cash from the industry, the government made only a token effort to impact their cash cow industry. Society at large chose to shun the habit once it’s effects became clearer and harder to deny. As a result, smoking rates are falling, and smokers no longer feel entitled to their habit( for the record, I have smoked for twenty years). Alcohol makers operate on the same profit margin as other comparable consumer products. Pot growers make BILLIONS on what was basically a weed. Anyone could grow pot. And I mean anyone. Anywhere. From the desert to the tundra, there is a strain that will grow untended. It should be an unsaleable product. More worthless than the clean dirt I get for 160 dollars for 7 yards. It is not. And the sole reason it is not is our drug laws. Now, other drugs that take serious processing, if not outright chemists, we may have some hope against. But pot? We are pouring billions into a black market that will use that money on other, horrible things. Pot is a staple in any black market, a cornerstone of that black economy. The law of unintended consequence has led to an absolutely astronomical expense to our country. I am willing to pay the cost of incarceration for a meth lab operator, but for some hippie with their pot garden? Not so much. Prostitution is what it is, and like any other of the deadly sins has been around since there have been people. I would not agree to legalize this behavior, but this stems from my personal beliefs and feelings, and I have no secular argument against it.
allyHM: No I think you miss the point, and the history that goes with it. Your whole post is very Adam and Eve. Can’t have it, but I want, consequences be damned…until there are actual consequences up close and personal. The original sin is disobedience, IMO, and removing the forbidden fruit wouldn’t of removed the disobedience. Furthermore you are looking at it in the abstract, and as a one sided abstract to boot. When bad behavior becomes acceptable we all pay for it in taxes, crime, and the general break down of society.
As to other types of crime being present…making it legal doesn’t make the crime go away, if anything it increases it. Drugs are not exactly known for producing a productive moral society. Neither is prostitution for that matter. Many more will become addicted and less productive. What does lack of productivity produce? CRIME. Addicts have a habit they have to feed somehow. Addicts produce one thing. Crime in various ways from theft to outright violence. Then what happens? We pay taxes through the nose for rehab, medical, education, and on and on just to insure the continuance of society itself. Do you really want to increase that?
One simply cannot gloss over the psychology involved with the mentality of bad behavior let alone gloss over the aspect of a ‘more is better’ society. It’s about the big picture here and what legalization of bad behavior produces. We will be a society of pure consumers devoid of any intellect, compassion, productivity, and ingenuity. History has proven this repeatedly. When we desensitize ourselves to one bad behavior pretty soon it doesn’t become a big leap to desensitize ourselves to more and more bad behavior. Modern society in it’s current form is proof of that.
As the old adage goes…” A moral society is a lasting society.” And there is a reason that adage exists. Greece, Babylon, Persia, Rome, on and on, ring any bells?? It’s like a liberal saying to me communism works if we just tweak it a bit.
Laurel: what Ricci said. You can’t legislate morality and live in America under our Constitution. If you want to impose your religious beliefs (which I SHARE mind you) on the rest of society, you need to go and create your own theocracy somewhere. Look, if YOU are allowed to create laws to make certain things illegal because you believe them to be immoral, then you open the can of worms to allow OTHER religions, like…oh, I don’t know….ISLAM with its shara law to do the same thing should they gain the upperhand at some point in the future. That’s the way it is, like it or not.
Ricci: Do you understand that you are using the exact same logic that those that pushed prohibition used? Your thought processes are exactly the same.
The thought process for the implementation of prohibition was if we make it illegal no one would dare do it and break the law. The law of unintended consequences was completely ignored. Your post ignores it as well.
I also have a couple of news flashes for you. Our laws are rooted in morality and always have been. Murder is immoral. Theft is immoral. Prostitution is immoral. I could jam up this blog listing how many laws are rooted in morality. Now are all laws rooted in morality? No I wouldn’t go that far and those I would categorize as the nuisance laws on the books. Such as little girls with lemonade stands.
And why is it everyone seems to ignore that this is a three part equation? First of all I have as yet to see anyone advocate legalization while also advocating doing away with all of the tax funding that goes with it. That means light sentencing, rehab, education costs as well as medical costs. I would be more than happy to let someone serve as a horrible warning in the town square but appears most of my fellow Americans don’t have the stomach for that, most especially if it is their kid, brother, sister, mother, spouse or best friend that gets to serve as the horrible warning.
Another part of that equation is that we pay for all of this nonsense and haven’t won the war on drugs because the will to win it isn’t there. One reason is the above example. Another reason is the money, power, appointments, budgets that politicians amass with it. There are plenty of countries that don’t have this problem because they have a zero tolerance policy. The minute we classified bad behavior as a disease it was game over.
Now as to your example of smoking versus pot…it’s bogus. There is tons of science about how bad pot really is for a person but it is ignored completely due to the ever changing attitudes of morality in our society. Hell we know too much alcohol can ruin a person and kill them, and yet people still die from it. Furthermore as our Constitution and Bill of Rights is written if one is legalized then it is discriminatory to not legalize it all. I don’t think it will ever go that far since as I pointed out in another post it isn’t a big leap to justify bad behavior once it starts with the ‘more is better’ mentality of human nature.
allyHM: Like it or not, as I pointed out our laws are rooted in morality. Like I said you want to legalize murder too?
You are having a very narrow view of this. Take the religion out of it. It’s about economics. If we tolerate the behaviors, such as laziness, selfishness, greed, gluttony, then you encourage a society that is no longer productive, innovative or compassionate. At some point the takers outnumber the producers. Then society collapses. Rome is a perfect example.
Have you ever met a dope head or an alcoholic that holds a job, not only survives but thrives? If you have I bet they are the exception and not the rule.
Greece is a current example of when self interest and laziness trump morality and productivity, no matter what the root cause of that self interest and laziness is. Self interest and laziness, no matter the impetus are the same. People who really advocate for the legalization of bad behavior are really advocating for what is good for themselves and not for what is good for society in general.
What I find stunning is that people have no clue as to where they came from so they really cannot see where they are going. Anyone who doesn’t know that laws are based in morality for the most part, doesn’t know their own history let alone world history.
Now as to religion itself it is a bit difficult to take it out of the equation completely since it is religion in all of it’s various forms that gave us the morality that made us productive human beings to begin with. No one is telling anyone what religion to be, be it Muslim, Jew, Protestant, Catholic, Buddist, etc. That is only a path to religion, not faith itself. However there is simply no denying that it is religion itself that civilized the world, and those that didn’t get it, fell. See Rome. Also take note that those above listed religions do have commonalities especially in the area of morality.
One can look at this completely from a secular view but it is a facade since our sense of right and wrong, good and bad, comes from religion whether we recognize that or not. Even Dawkins recognizes that.
Laurel: Do you understand that the “morality” argument is the exact one the progressives have used to create a permanent, dependent underclass. If you endeavor to make others decisions for them, then you bear the responsibility to mitigate some of the consequences.
First of all I have as yet to see anyone advocate legalization while also advocating doing away with all of the tax funding that goes with it.
Please allow me to be the first. The war on Drugs was lost when they included pot. The giant pile of cash on all levels of government that is spent on drug interdiction, all the community sentencing programs, all the money spent on locking up people for pot, are dollars wasted that could be spent on violent crime, human trafficking, or any number of other, far more deserving crimes. Of course, all levels of law enforcement would loose their fat grants and all that seizure money as well. Drug laws make a really good platform for those that would rah-rah their own “tough on crime” reputations, but really are just more grains on the beach that is our incomprehensible maze of laws. Allow me to explain. If you want to eliminate drug use, you go after the manufacturers. In Oklahoma, we have many laws specifically written to home meth labs, and I support every one. You are correct that some drugs have such heinous ramifications for us as a society that we can not afford to ignore them. Pot is not such a drug, and even if it were, what are we going to do, salt the earth? Morality is not the foundation of drug laws, control of drug related crime is. In my opinion, this eliminates morality from that particular discussion.
As to my argument on cigarettes and pot, I would love to see your tons of science to back up your claims. I have stayed current on most published research for years, and the constant is this: The most devastating side effect of pot is prison.
“We make a lot of laws. We are very productive.”
“Have you ever repealed any?”
“Uhhhh. No. I don’t think we have.”
That cracked me up. I mean, what a concept. If I was President, I’d have a “Repeal Czar.”
That was some of the most interesting 42 minutes of video I’ve watched in a while. I’ve always loved Stossel, he tells it like it is more than just about anyone else in journalism.
This is some of the best discussion ever.
I freaking love our commenters.
OMG, Mock. I was thinking the EXACT same thing. You just don’t get this level of discourse on other blogs. Always thought-provoking and interesting… LOVE IT!
Oh, for what’s it’s worth, I heart John Stossel – especially his Magnum P.I. ‘stache. SIGH…
::stands up and applauds Ricci whilst shouting “Brava! Brava!::
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Amazing, Laurel, how you raised the strawman argument of legalizing murder. I can only surmise you completely missed the part where I said “so long as they aren’t harming others.” That or you’re being purposely obtuse. I’m not really sure at this point.
I’m only about 15 minutes through – but I LOVE this man’s comment about the taxi lobbyist:
“This man, you know he’s about money. I can’t blame him, but don’t come hustle me!”
This video highlights exactly why I’m afraid to start a custom cookie business out of my kitchen. I don’t want to have to pay all the money probably needed to get permits, have the government come in and inspect my kitchen, and have to figure out and list all the nutritional info.
From the video:
“I would compromise your freedom to protect the majority[.]”
Huh.
Here’s a thought… how about you VOLUNTARILY compromise YOUR OWN freedom, and leave mine alone – you paternalistic, self-righteous, meddling bitch. When my exercise of freedom starts encroaching on YOUR rights, THEN you have grounds to complain. AND you have a civil justice system by which to bring your grievance.
But until then, allow me to impart upon you the one line summary of my position on government: Leave me the hell alone.
Right now, the government can not stop or even control drug use. They never will be able to control it as long as it is illegal. Anyone that wishes to do drugs, will. The best they can hope for is to control it somewhat and the way to do that is by legalizing and regulating it. At least it will make it harder for kids to get it. Now, any kid that wants it will buy it on the corner as easy as an adult because the dealer doesn’t check ID’s. At least if it was regulated similar to alcohol there would be some control over it and the crime from gangs, dealers and smugglers would dry up. Cost of court cases, prison upkeep and police time would drop drastically. Alcohol and cigarettes both are much more dangerous for your health also. Drinking also makes a lot of people violent and troublesome whereas pot just mellows people out. How many people die each year from the effects of marijuana, how many from cigarettes and how many from alcohol. Marijuana is the safest and least likely to make you violent yet it is the illegal “evil” weed. I just have never understood the punishment given out for pot. I personally don’t smoke it but I have been around it and yes I have smoked it in the past and inhaled. I personally don’t care for it but I see it doing less harm physically and financially than alcohol or tobacco.
Laurel…….You really gave them a go. You said it so much better than I could, but I totally agree with you. But, they have been blinded. Our only hope is to quote a few verses………you know the one about “professing themselves to be wise….became fools.
I can’t make them see…..no one can.
I would ask them to SEEK THE LORD’S GUIDANCE AND ASK HIM WHAT IS THE TRUTH OF THIS. THEN THERE WILL BE TRUE ENLIGHTENMENT. HE ALWAYS SHOWS US THE TRUTH WHEN WE HONESTLY GO BEFORE HIM SEEKING IT.
Instead of just trumpeting OUR OPINIONS.
Paula: and that is YOUR opinion.
Ladies and Gentlemen, not to belabor a point, but this is the very reason the Founding Fathers included the SECOND AMENDMENT.
BUY MORE AMMO.
Also, I am digging that ‘stache as well!!
I also agree that pot is less dangerous than cigarettes. I don’t partake in either, but I could care less if other people do. Same for prostitution. I’m not going to dictate what a woman does to make money as long as she isn’t physically hurting anyone in the process.
So, just to throw this out there… I was watching a NatGeo program last week about how more people are addicting and dying from legal drugs (oxycoton, etc) than heroin, meth and cocaine combined. Ironically, when NatGeo was interviewing some of the addicts, they stated that the appeal to these drugs was that since these are regulated, legal drugs produced by pharmaceutical companies, they are cleaner, purer, and ‘safer’.
So, these are legal drugs that are regulated, but are being obtained illegally through doctor shopping and thievery. Florida’s problem with this is approaching near epidemic proportions, supposedly since they have pharmacies and doctors on every corner.
The way I see it, the only way this country is really curb the drug problem is to do away with the entitlement programs. Oh, and to arm its citizens to the teeth to protect their medicine cabinets. Then legalizing drugs would truly be a viable option. Does anyone think that will ever happen? I highly doubt it. We’re all too busy trying to save each other from ourselves at a massive expense.
I have never understood why prostitution is illegal. Whether or not you like the idea of it, it’s a transaction between two consenting individuals (where it’s legal); they’re not hurting anyone else. And the brothel guy said what I’ve thought all along: it’s legal to go out and sleep with anyone you want as often as you want, but the second someone gives you money for it, it’s illegal. It seems 100% like legislating morality to me. Do I think prostitution is a good idea? Not really. I also don’t think smoking or eating ho-ho’s and Pepsi three times a day is a good idea, but I don’t think the government should tell you you can’t do them.
The average age a female enters prostitution is 13 yrs old? Hollywood and the media have shaped an image of prostitution into being something that it’s not. Be wary of ‘popular opinion’ in these matters.
Ricci, ally and others: Pot is not less dangerous than cigarettes. I don’t know where you get your propaganda from but it’s bogus. Do some research and homework since the web is full of objective information. For starters pot is a carcinogen…just like cigarettes except pot doesn’t have a filter. It also changes the brain chemistry. Cigarettes do not. That just scratches the surface. The effects of pot are far greater and far different than cigarettes hence the high that is involved. Isn’t that the reason for smoking pot? Hell even Discovery Health did a huge piece on the effects of pot and the science.
Now as to morality…I think you are confusing it with compassion Ricci. Morality and compassion are not synonymous by any stretch. Our society uses compassion to treat drug abuse not morality. There is no way it can be considered even remotely moral to help people off of a cliff. However I am glad you advocate removing all drug treatment funding for it…good luck with that. As I said the minute it gets up close and personal people will balk. People would rather think that their loved one has a ‘disease’ than being a weak individual and moral failure.
allyHM: Since when is drug abuse a victimless crime? Show me that stat because I can show you a whole lot of stats that are contrary. Child abuse stats alone show that drug abuse is a major factor. Go to FBI website. It is apparent to me that you have never had to deal with a drug abuser and the havoc they produce. It is not victimless by any stretch, and if it is produce the evidence. My point about murder, and you know it but don’t want to admit it, is we legislate morality all of the time and always have. It isn’t just murder either. How about rape? Theft? Assault? Those are morality laws. Saying we can’t legislate morality is a bogus argument. When we apply rules and laws be it financial sector, private sector, or the personal, we do it to make all things equal and on the up and up…THAT MAKES IT MORALITY! We do that to keep a civilized society and keep things fair and honest. Calling me obtuse doesn’t prove your point.
Listen folks, I agree we have too many laws on the books, however I will never agree to legalize sin in the name of the almighty dollar. Not now, not ever. Especially when I know people are devoid of the history involved. Here is a fact. Drugs were legal at one time. Prohibition was actually late to the game. So ask yourself why around the globe that keeping drugs illegal stuck but prohibition didn’t. At some point in time the individual has to give way to society at large for civilization to remain intact.
BB: I am surprised at your post. Simple logic dictates that your thinking is off since pot is not used nearly as much as alcohol and cigarettes. You are comparing apples to onions.
Pot has to be used as often for a century for an apt side by side comparison to be made.
Here are some sites to chew on:
http://www.michaelshouse.com/marijuana-addiction/the-effects-of-long-term-marijuana-use/
http://marijuanaaddictiontreatment.org/statistics-facts.html
http://rehab-international.org/marijuana-addiction/marijuana-addiction-statistics
http://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/marijuana
http://www.nij.gov/topics/drugs/welcome.htm
http://www.justice.gov/dea/demand/speakout/07so.htm
Be aware that this is just the tip of the iceberg on stats. I could clog up this blog but I don’t think Mock and Daisy would appreciate it.
Our laws are not based on morality, they are based on the principle of liberty. It is not illegal to murder because it is morally wrong. It is illegal to murder because it infringes upon another person’s right to life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness.
Laurel: I am not interested in getting into a link war either, LOL, and as we are both on the same team here, I would suggest that it is you who have been propagandized. Every link you provided is from an entity invested in prohibition because said prohibition pays their bills. I was looking for scientific studies, not government propaganda. However, even within our government are scientific communities still telling the truth-here is one.
http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/alcoholdrug/index.htm
Alcohol and prescription addiction are still rising, while use of ALL illicit drugs(including meth, extacy, and heroin) are on the wane.
Here are 101 peer reviewed published studies on the actual physical effects of Pot .
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000884
This is more what I was talking about, scientific study vs. government demagoguery. For the record, I have been researching this since you had to take pen and paper and go to the library to find the latest journals to get the information. I am beginning to resent the implication that I am ignorant as to the history of prohibition or the physical ramifications of various substances. I am not ignorant, I just do not agree with you.
As to the compassion vs morality argument, here your ignorance begins to show. The briefest of searches will reveal that all these programs were born in the attempt to SAVE PRISON DOLLARS!! Sure, they are run by compassionate people, loving individuals dedicated to helping addicts overcome their addiction, but compassion does not pay the bills. The state or government does, and this is why: We endeavored to make the drug decision for our citizens. We decided to incarcerate to enforce this endeavor. We can not afford to incarcerate all those who will not obey. We had to find other ways. PERIOD!! There is no compassion (or mercy) from the bureaucracy. They crippled our bench with mandatory sentencing-eliminating the drug users last shot at mercy. They imposed draconian measures, hoping the threat of a ruined life at the hands of the state would scare users more than a life ruined by drugs(!?!?!?).
Laurel says,
“Greece is a current example of when self interest and laziness trump morality and productivity, no matter what the root cause of that self interest and laziness is. Self interest and laziness, no matter the impetus are the same.”
Trust me, Laurel, Greece is not in the predicament they are in because of self-interest. They are in this predicament because of the socialistic corporatism that has engulfed governments around the world.
Self-interest is the driving force behind productivity and capitalism [see Rand, Ayn].
You remove incentive to be productive, your remove productivity.
RON PAUL 2012
Hoosierdaddy: That is incorrect. You are talking strictly constitutional when I am talking world history and the reason those laws came into existence to begin with. It is religion that gave us morality to begin with.
If was strictly an issue of liberty then vigilante justice wouldn’t be frowned upon. Liberty would require people to seek their own form of justice and recourse.
Hoosierdaddy: Voting oneself the treasury is self interest.
As to the apples and oranges comment, the study I cited will tell you that 14% of people under 25 smoke cigarettes, 24% drink alcohol and 31% use pot (as of 2010, and that use is down from38% in 2008). There are not far fewer people who smoke pot, there are far fewer people who will ADMIT to using pot.
No Laurel, that is called big-government socialism.
Most of our expansion in government has not been people voting in their own self-interest, it has been people (Dems and big government Repubs) voting in the so-called interest of the “ignorant masses” or the “less fortunate.” This paternalistic, I-know-better-than-you government is the same one that has given us Obamacare, Social Security, Medicare, and every other “entitlement” out there. And it has all be justified because it is “for our own good.” Give me a break.
Limit the government to its constitutional role and you limit the influence that voters and special interests have.
Check. Mate.
Ricci: Source doesn’t negate the crime stats. Telling me I am propagandized doesn’t change that. I also posted links that were not government sources. I could easily triple those links if you like.
Your flawed logic is populist thinking at best. You are searching for what you want to hear instead of reading both sides. I have done that already, plus I have personal experience to draw from as well.
Also realize I pointed out earlier we haven’t won the war on drugs due to the will not to win it from the money, power, appointments that go with it. That is where there vested interest lies.Continuance of the war itself. There is a lot of power in those various alphabet agencies but it doesn’t negate the damage done from drugs. If anything it enhances it.
BTW…your second link had been refuted in further studies.
Also, use of pot does not automatically make someone lazy!! This canard should have run its course by now, but has not because it is a general argument that is impossible to counter, because you can not prove a negative. People who smoke pot still have to pay the water and they like to eat. This argument is as specious as the “gateway” argument, and I have no respect for it.
Hoosierdaddy: Your last post is pure ridiculous and just plain stupid.
My second link contains over one hundred studies, not all of them positive, so which ones have been refuted? You took a whole five minutes for thousands of pages, and I am the one searching for what I want to hear?
OK, so we agree that drug related crime has risen significantly since drug prohibition. Just like alcohol related crime rose during that prohibition. The fact of the matter is when you ban something you create a false value for that thing.
Ricci: What in the name of heaven are you talking about with the last two posts? Actuality is in some of the links I posted pot use is lower than cigarette and alcohol use. However it doesn’t negate the fact that people do get addicted, crime is involved, and it is physically damaging.
I have as yet to see anyone that is productive and a prolific drug user. Yeah they gotta eat, support their habit, pay their bills…and that is where the crime comes in!
Ricci: I have already read that study and that study is referenced in the links I provided.
SHEESH!
Repealing Prohibition didn’t make organized crime evaporate. Cigarettes have always been legal and yet there is a black market for them funding terrorism. It is you who are posting false canards in thinking that legalization will solve all the problems.
Laure: Has it ever occurred to you that you have a preconception of what a pot user looks like? I know many productive pot users. They look just like us. Not all of them are “pot heads” most use on the weekends or after a particularly stressful day. Use rates being what they are, chances are best that YOU know a productive pot smoker, and just do not realize it.
The first of the two posts was in answer to you r response about this link.
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000884
There is no way you looked at this link or you would have realized that there is no one study to refute-there is literally over a hundred rounded up for your perusal. There is no way this link could be propaganda, as not all of these studies are even pro pot. So I was asking which of the one hundred had been refuted, that is all
Ricci: Yep it has occurred to me that is why I have studied this for years. My daughter as well. My husband as well. I also pointed out that productive drug abusers are the exception not the rule. Do I really have to keep going to back to what I previously have posted?
Sorry I misquoted the wrong link from your post.
Have a great day. I have to be productive. I will check back later.
Oh and Ricci…One other thing…studies still do not negate past history of civilizations crumbling due to legalization of anything goes behavior.
So you can’t refute any of it, eh Laurel? That’s cool. Just call it ridiculous and move on.
Translation of Laurel’s post, “There’s nothing to see here, folks. Hooosierdaddy just provided facts and they should have no bearing on my own irrationality. Keep moving.”
Oh, by the way, you said, “You are talking strictly constitutional when I am talking world history and the reason those laws came into existence to begin with. It is religion that gave us morality to begin with.”
I’ve never denied that morality comes from religion, but thank you for making our argument for us. The government has no role in telling us what is and what isn’t moral. It has a job to protect liberty. Only liberty. That is it.
BTW, you’re on a blog post that is discussing the role of government in legislating morality. I’m sorry for using the law of the land, the US Constitution, as the basis for my post in such an environment. Not sure what I was thinking.
Re: Pot and crime.
My 15 year old grandson got involved with pot. He couldn’t afford it…….Did he go to work, become productive, and pay his bills and pay for his pot………..No. He stole from his mother and dad. He stole from his granddad. He hocked every nice Christmas present he had ever gotten from us. He stole from his best friend. He wound up in prison.
When he got out, he went right back to his old ways by hanging with his old friends. He lost his drivers license. Was carried back to jail because he was riding in vehicle that had pot and pills in the seat.
We spent 6 years, crying, praying, intervening.
Thank God he is straight now……..working, supporting a wife and small child. If he falls again, I am sure he will go back to his crimes. He won’t have enough money to pay bills and buy pot.
The crimes he will commit will be because he wants it and will have to get it anyway he can.
And you think legalizing pot will make it right for him?
Wake up
Paula: You make my argument for me. He could not afford the pot (that will grow anywhere and should be free to anyone with a flower pot and some water) so he turned to crime. Pot did not make him a criminal, prohibition did.
Laurel: as to your productive crack, I work a 45 hour week, and still volunteer at least 10 hours a week. I am on late at night because I have just gotten off of work, I am seeing to the site I help moderate, updating my state page for the national conservative woman site I volunteer at, and come here to decompress, lest you think I am some lump that sleeps till 2 and surfs the web all night. Though if I wanted to, that would be my right.
Ricci: Pot did make him a criminal. He chose to use it. Oxycontin is expensive. Suppose I wanted it and couldn’t afford it. I have a choice………..don’t use it, or steal to get it. Oh,,,I know…….just make it legal, the price would come down, and then I could get it. Either way…….I get it.
Ricci……..so where do you do draw the line? They’re already arguing that pot is no worse than alcohol and cigarettes. After pot is legalized………what next? They will argue it’s no worse than pot.
Where will it end?
Admit, there is an argument there, but the answer is not to legalize it.
As to the government intrusion…….some is necessary…..and most of it is unnecessary. But God told us to be obedient to our government.
The answer is to elect people who will take back all the nuisance laws and do away with them.
Allyhm/Ricci
Speaking of consequences: Do you realize the power of your words. Deep in your heart, are you so sure you’re right? You both seem such nice, intelligent, sophisticated ladies that I would be proud to know. Are we posting these comments to get “one up” or to prove “we’re right”. Or just taking a stand. Do you realize you’re accountable for the words we yield. You like searches…..search the Bible for “words” /Power of words”. If you’re Christian as you say you are, you give the Bible final authority on all that is true.
There are consequences for words…….”you’re arguments”. If you’re wrong, think of how many you are leading to “believe as you do.” Would you be able to take it back, or would it be out there and too late? Think on it.
Oxycontin is a regulated substance, and if a doctor agreed that it was an appropriate treatment avenue for you, you would be surprised at how much help there is out there to pay legitimate drug expenses. If a doctor does not agree, NOW your want for Oxycontin might make you a criminal. So by the logic of pot prohibition, we should not let anyone ,anywhere,for any reason have Oxycontin, because some few will be willing to break the law to get it. Soooo…..the line kind of draws itself, doesn’t it. Regulated drugs which are very harmful or of minimal use are killed by the market, and the same thing is happening to most illicit drugs, albeit very slowly. Useful and needful drugs will be supported through increased sales and widespread recommendation by ones who are already benefiting from it . I was unwilling to swap my trusted Benedryl for Claritin, until a friend reported her success with Claritin. No one has recommended trying cocaine to me. I believe, especially in this information age, that most people can be trusted to act in their own self-interest (assuming desire for a successful life is present), and the chain of government around our necks should be getting lighter and lighter. Instead, they are adding ever heavier links, and it is getting harder and harder to breath. We should have no Federal Dpt. of Education. We should have no Federal Drug Enforcement agency. These tasks are best left to the laboratories of the states, and time and experience will let us see what works best. To imply the federal government is more moral somehow than state governments( and that is what we do when we abdicate responsibilities clearly assigned to the state) is devastatingly naive. If we are going to dig into over-reaching and incomprehensible regulations, I am just saying that drug policy is a good place to start, seeing as how it reaches into almost every facet of our lives, even though we do not use them. You are still paying the bills. And so am I.
As a Christian, I absolutely realize that words have consequences, and that I will be held to account for every last one. I choose my words with great care, and I try to make them sweet, as I have had to eat more than a few. And, for the record, we are using the very same book, and I do consider it to be definitive, to who I am supposed to be, and to what I should present as a reflection of Christ.
I am counciled to be a good citizen in whatever nation I live, to “render unto Ceaser”, and to allow my happiness to be a beacon to the lost, that they might find what I have.
Having said that, I do not want to render unto anyone my right to answer my call. Can I live under a government that can force me to pay for abortions? Can I live under a government that indoctrinates my children? Can I live under a government that controls my life as much as it can, that constantly seeks ever more power over my slightest free thought? Can I be a Christian, can I answer the call, in a nation where power is its own justification? I can not.
Much of the social engineering that we have allowed is diametrically opposed to our beliefs, as this is the nature of the beast of power. Our only option is to lessen that power, to erode it at every opportunity, and restore our government to what it was meant to be. All this extra control they lay on us, in the attempt to make every man a criminal, in the attempt to make us all wards of the state, must be ripped from them. And these are words I will stand by.
This will be my last comment on this topic, because we are now severely beating a rotting, dead corpse of a horse. So….
1. Agree with others that the prohibition is what creates the crime. Period. That point has been beyond well made.
2. As Christians, we are mandated to spread the Gospel, i.e., go into all the world and make disciples of all men. Nothing – NOTHING – in Jesus’ teachings tells us to enforce our beliefs on others via law and/or sword. Doing so skates dangerously close to the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition in intention. We are to lead BY EXAMPLE. If you believe, as I do, that doing drugs and engaging in prostitution are wrong, THEN DON’T DO THEM AND BY ALL MEANS EXPRESS TO PEOPLE WHY YOU BELIEVE IT TO BE WRONG. But why in heaven’s name (and I mean that QUITE literally) would you want to FORCE those beleifs on someone else? The only time Jesus even came close to such a thing in scripture was overturning the moneychangers tables in the temple. He did that because it was defiling the temple, His Father’s house. The only correlation one can draw from that is it would probably be fitting and proper to stop someone from doing drugs or engaging in prostitution in your church. Period.
HoosierDaddy: “I’ve never denied that morality comes from religion, but thank you for making our argument for us. The government has no role in telling us what is and what isn’t moral. It has a job to protect liberty. Only liberty. That is it.
BTW, you’re on a blog post that is discussing the role of government in legislating morality. I’m sorry for using the law of the land, the US Constitution, as the basis for my post in such an environment. Not sure what I was thinking.”
John Adams would disagree: “”We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
Liberty comes from God. “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are … Liberty.” ThJefferson.
“[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind” Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence.
“Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine.” James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice.
Ricci: You seem to have a comprehension problem. I said there are abusers that are fully functional adults and they were the exception not the rule. How many times do I need to acknowledge that?
I gave you the stats. Most are not functional. If you don’t accept the stats there is nothing I can do. I also gave you the history, not only in this country, but the world. If you cannot accept that, there is nothing I can do. As a matter of fact if most were like you I would agree with you, but they aren’t and we as a society pay through the nose in every way possible for that. I do appreciate though that you agree with removal of all tax funding rehab etc. Believe it or not that helps.
What I can do though is stand my ground and that I will do. This is an issue that crosses political lines since there is still a majority on both sides of the aisle that won’t budge on this issue. I am one of them. My education and experience tell me a far different story than yours. BTW…last year one half mile from house, on a route my daughter drives regularly, a man killed an entire family of 7 by hitting them head on. He was coming down from a high, as a matter of fact, police thought he was sober. Routine blood tests told a different story. Apparently his judgment and reflexes were impaired. He got three years in prison and rehab. BTW…that high was pot.
allyHM: You are incorrect. It isn’t prohibition unto itself that causes the black market issues. It’s taxation. Remember Capone was locked up in Alcatraz for tax evasion, not organized crime. So if you think crime will evaporate with legalization you are sadly deluded. One only need to look at tobacco to see the story there. Tobacco has never been illegal and yet a black market exists for that to fund terrorism. And dearie, Jesus commanded us to live by his words, create our lives around his words, and not hide our light under a bushel. You are confusing modern day morals and morass with the gospel. Read the book in the abstract and you will understand. Your Inquisition example is pure nonsense since religion has had numerous reformations because of the Gospel not in spite of the Gospel. History doesn’t happen in a bubble. The Inquisition was more about politics than religion. Religion was the excuse. Also by the same token it can be said that you are forcing YOUR beliefs on others. Swords tend to be double edged. As a matter of fact a much stronger case can be made that you are since drugs are illegal that once were legal. Take the plank out thine own eye before you examine the splinter in mine.
Hoosierdaddy: What is the point is speaking to you? So much of what you know isn’t so. If you think the FF’s didn’t take world history, philosophy, and morality into account when formulating our founding documents then we have nothing to discuss. Let me guess…you think ‘equality’ and ‘fairness’ are synonymous as well as ‘liberty’ and ‘freedom’. Get an education and get back to me. And no I’m still not voting for lunatic Ron Paul.
Mike: Great post but somehow I think it will escape people since they are not grasping morality, where it came from, and why…let alone the net effect of it. People tend to forget that the FF’s started the Revolution and fought it due to their morality. Civil War is another example of a ‘moral’ war. There is an evolution to thought but that seems to escape people.
And to everyone: If you think tobacco and smoking is bad and not equatable to pot. Think again. Basic physics and chemistry tells us that the minute you light your doobie it becomes a carcinogen…just like that cigarette, cigar, and what do ya know…your BBQ pit and the tail pipe of your car.
Laurel…….I am proud of you for not backing down. You express yourself so well. I have only a high school education, but have 70 years practical common sense. That said, I do know what the Bible teaches (not just a book). Crime will not disappear . What bothers me so much is these ideas are being put forth by professing Christians. I do not intend to offend, but I fear Christians are only forming their own opinions instead of letting the Lord and Holy Spirit guide them. As you can imagine, over 70 years, there have been many questions in my heart about certain matters. Many times, I had no comprehension of what would be the truth about a certain matter. If I was humble and really wanted to know, the Lord has never failed to lead me in the right direction.
Laurel, it appears to me that HoosierDaddy has adopted the philosophy of objectivism and translated that to the founding. While there is much that I love about Atlas Shrugged, Ms. Rand had an incomplete and erroneous understanding of the founding of our country and its moral basis. Her atheism would not allow her to see the truth.
This comment from HD: “Self-interest is the driving force behind productivity and capitalism [see Rand, Ayn],” completely fails to understand the full range of self-interest. HoosierDaddy, I would point you to the brilliant observation of Alexander Titler who, time has proven, is correct in his analysis.
Paula: Thank you. Unfortunately I don’t think I am articulate enough. This is a blog so I cannot educate people in a short span to thousands of years of history. From where I am sitting people don’t know it and are doomed to repeat it. One can lead a horse to water but they can’t make them drink.
Do not readily dismiss your high school education since it came at a time that it was more valuable than today’s college education. Also life experience counts.
There are two people who are more articulate and vociferous on this topic than I am. My husband and my 21 year old. My 21 year old was doing a follow along and making many more points about this than I did…especially the science about pot and general history. Unfortunately she won’t blog on a blog that Mom blogs on. I’m working on that.
And No I won’t back down. I have had far too much experience both personally and professionally with drug addiction. People are rapidly in my view becoming desensitized to it as our culture does a moral meltdown. One need only look at the last fifty years of our culture to see that.
Mike: That is why I caution people about Ayn Rand. While I like her, I take her with a grain of salt. Self interest without morality is anarchy.
Morality also dictates that we do indeed care about our fellow man and society at large. By doing so we also care about ourselves, our family, our friends and neighbors.
I not only care about my child and the world she will live in, but I care about all children and the world they will live in.
And yes Alexander Titler is correct….unfortunately.
Excuse me…Titler is spelled Tytler.
Thanks for the spelling correction on Tytler.
Zo says it so well.
http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=email-video&video-id=6642&direct-to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pjtv.com%2Fs%2FHAYTKNQ
If the link doesn’t work go to PJTV and see it.
Try this too.
http://www.pjtv.com/s/HAYTKNQ
>> Morality also dictates that we do indeed care about our fellow man and society at large.
What makes you think that, Laurel?